The Pulling the Thread Podcast

Summary
In this podcast episode, David LeBlanc interviews Jeramiah, exploring his journey of questioning faith that began with doubts about Jehovah’s Witness teachings. Jeramiah shares his experience with Assemblies of God and Bible college, expressing frustration with theological focus and lack of critical examination. The conversation delves into Jeramiah’s exposure to different religious traditions and his involvement with a Messianic synagogue.

The narrative unfolds with conflicts within the Messianic movement, leading to a pivotal moment with Dr. Raymond Gannon that triggers Jeramiah’s departure from Messianic Judaism. The episode highlights the contradictions and manipulation tactics within these movements and Jeramiah’s eventual exploration of authentic Jewish spaces.

Jeramiah discusses his conversion to Judaism within the Conservative movement, emphasizing the spiritual and eclectic nature of his experience. The conversation also touches on the impact of his journey on family dynamics and the challenges of navigating mixed religious backgrounds post-divorce.

The episode concludes with Jeramiah’s reflections on critical scholarship, his appreciation for the intellectual tradition within the Conservative movement, and the ongoing role of Judaism in his life.

Full Transcript

Welcome to Pulling The Threads podcast. Thank you for tuning in to the second part of this two part series where David Le Blank interviews me. You can learn more about my story. So tune in for this and make sure you like and subscribe on youtube. Follow us on Spotify, join the Facebook group and join the discussion at Jesus the Jew within Judaism dot com. Make sure you subscribe for all the updates and new upcoming shows and make sure you post your feedback and comments about this after viewing this episode, you know, looking at things within this of credit. Yeah.

So, so you, so you’re, you’re pressing forward. So you chose, you already mentioned that part of your decision was because of your dad and just the fact that he didn’t want to pay for your schooling, that’s probably a big factor. But that aside, you know, let’s put that aside. You chose from a secular professional, educational track, you went towards a religious one, but you’ve already explained how you, you feel like you need to fix something, right? You feel like there’s something you need to get closure and you need to have, you need to overcome some of what you’ve been through and some of what you’re feeling and you feel like this is a path where you’re gonna find a sense of wholeness and satisfaction. And that if you can just pursue the knowledge, right? That, that you, you, you know that you, you’re a critical thinker, you’re probably at this point in your life in your young twenties, you’re probably not giving yourself enough credit for being a critical thinker. You probably just feel like why am I always at odds with people with these questions I have. But yet you, you’re pressing because you feel like at the end of this process, you’re gonna feel peace, wholeness and some sense of closure to the pain you’ve experienced. And you feel like that this path is a better path for you than that professional path that maybe doesn’t have that element to it, even though it might be more financially prosperous, it’s not gonna fit that deeper need that you have. And so I, I, I’m, I’m, I’m, I’m projecting here a little bit and, and if, and if you, if I’m off a little bit, please correct me. But I feel like I really resonate with what you’re talking about because I feel like I had the same journey. And there, there’s this, this drive that we have, right? That we just feel like we have to know like there’s something that there that needs to be uncovered. And if we can keep looking at it, we’re going to find it and it’s gonna answer the question, that’s the deepest question in our heart. And then we’re gonna feel at peace. And so we already started this interview where you feel very comfortable with where you’re at right now and you’ve had to go through a lot to get there. But this is a really important point in your life where you’re in your young twenties and you’re looking at going into ministry at this point, they’re, they’re pushing into this, that you’re gonna serve ultimately on the mission field and all this other stuff. And even at this very juncture, you’re already like having issues with what they’re trying to teach you.

Yeah. Did I overstate some of that or is it, would you say that that’s accurate? I mean, yes, you think I’m following God by the information that I’ve been led to believe pressing forward with something? See back to like what I was saying though, like when I was a child and I would walk and clear my head and kind of pray and process things simple. It was a simple thing, but it gave me peace and, you know, later in life, you know, similarly mindfulness and, you know, meditative practices that come from like Mooar and stuff have helped with the same kind of thing. And I try to be very mindful to be present in the moment and not worried about the future or the past or whatnot. Very simple thing, but I mean, it centers it grounds you. But at the time I was trying, yeah, trying to find peace, trying to deal with why bad things happen to good people, why all this stuff happened to me. Looking for a healing God. But to be honest with you, the answers that I saw weren’t in religion or Christianity at all. I was diagnosed with PTSD from the abuse that I experienced and, you know, I had to start taking, you know, medication and going to counseling and stuff like that and, starting to grapple with the mental health issues. It was about that time because I was in bible college. You know, I was having emotional difficulties with roommates that had their own personal trauma that they kind of let out on people. And, hm. So, you know, the, yeah, I’m not gonna get too often in the weeds on that one.

No, no, no, I, I understand. I, I apologize if I kind of derailed you a little bit but I just felt it was a really important point of your journey, you know, where you were at emotionally at that time. Yeah.

I, I was vulnerable for sure. And, you know, looking for, I mean, looking for peace, looking for happiness, looking for healing, wanting to be a good person who, who, who gives good to this world versus, you know, harm, trying to be conscientious. But really, at that point is where I started taking my mental health seriously. And, you know, years of counseling to work through all the trauma to the point where, you know, I feel like I’m, I’m able to, to help people and it’s probably why I have a more balanced view of things and, you know, compassion for others, all the stuff I’ve been through, I mean, if you’re aware of your own pain, how can you not be considered other people in difficult times, you know.

Yeah, that like we talked about earlier, pain brings empathy. So, so from there, so you’re in bible college and I, and again, I, I’m not trying to psychoanalyze you here. I’m just trying to help you bring forth some, some really relevant stuff for the audience. So at some point you ended up in the, in the, in the mission field, right? From this experience.

So, yeah, immediately afterwards, I did like a, a two month mission trip. I was, I was involved, I got involved with a young adult ministry and the M is a God and I was leading a small group. And then I was doing some mission work and stuff here and there. And I’m, I’m trying to think somewhere in there. I, I met my, my ex kind of in that, that time frame there. And then I, I started to get into, in Christian rap music at that time also. Was that I said, so you, you met your wife through somebody of God? No, I met my wife through a friend who I was training, for a tough man championship. Who? Oh, ok. He was, she was a coworker of his?

Oh, ok. Well, I, I just assumed. Yeah. Ok.

But, yeah, I know. So I didn’t actually meet her through the religious thing but her, her mom was strong Southern Baptist. I think they went to Oakland Bible fellowship or something like that. But, yeah. So, I mean, I was involved in lay ministry. I hadn’t got, yeah, I didn’t go into full time ministry. I had ethical questions and concerns about the ministry from what I’ve seen behind the scenes. The business of looking at it as a spiritual endeavor, the business of it. A lot of it just didn’t rub right with me. So I never committed to the full time ministry. But, yeah, I was that, so you had potential opportunities but you just were unsettled about it. Yeah. And I wasn’t so convinced of the dogmatic theological statements and the views and, you know, I still, when I, when I preach was very, very Hebrew scriptures oriented, like a majority of everything I said. And, and, and for a while there. It was definitely affected by the revival stuff that was going on where they had an emphasis emphasis on the Tabernacle on the festivals and stuff like that. From a totally Christian Jesus is everything perspective. So given it’s, it’s not where it ended up. But everything that I did kind of had a flavor of this, the, the Hebrew to it. So I hadn’t fully went Messianic yet. When I was in Bible college or Bible college, I had went to like a couple of Messianic, you know, things here and there. But yeah, so I get, you know, meet my wife, we get engaged. I have this idea in my head. It’s like I want to raise my kids Jewish. And I was just thinking when, when do you think that idea just started to come up in your mind?

I don’t know.

It’s interesting because it came to, it did come to my mind and it was just, I wanna raise my kids Jewish at some point.

You just had this idea that. Well, OK, so part of it is this part of it, is this, I wanted to give my kids a culture and a tradition being raised Jehovah’s Witness where you don’t have birthdays and holidays and stuff like that.

I wanna give my kids a culture and tradition. That’s meaningful that they have memories together because when you don’t do things with family together for the holidays or like Thanksgiving or any of that kind of stuff because the devil had something to do with people getting together and enjoying themselves. Don’t understand, you know how the devil wants families not to connect with each other and bond and the devils in families bonding. I wanted to give my kids a tradition and a culture and it’s the one that made sense to me. It’s the one I had the least problems with. You know, And so I’m like, this is what I want to give my kids. I have a lot less questions about this than I have about other stuff. But, and, and that was the thought and then I’m like, well, and, you know, trying to get her there. We ended up settling on a Messianic synagogue because it was a lot easier. I had started, we had started couple’s therapy at a covenant church in Carrollton, Texas. You have Children at this point. No, no. This is pre-marriage. Because like my marriage is what brought me to Messianic Judaism getting married because we, we had a Messianic Jewish wedding which was a compromise and felt weird, but it did feel a bit appropriator like it wasn’t, I, I had questions. But, you know, in the pro so we started out at Covenant Church and the, the discipleship for the for pre marriage, it was very controlling. Very, I don’t know, intrusive, it didn’t feel appropriate. And then I was like, all right, we need to do something different. And that’s when we got involved with Brohem, the Messianic Synagogue there. And it was one of those, Torah observant Messianic synagogues. I’m familiar with some people that are part of it. Yeah. Huh.

I, I’ve had relations with people that were part of that synagogue. They were very, you know, the Jews, arguably the Torah portions gentiles have a different place.

They can’t necessarily be the, you know, they did have a associate gentile rabbi but he didn’t do, you know, he, he never, he would not take on the role that, that, you know, like Jews play. So it was, there was like a second class citizenship thing to it. There was, it, it wasn’t clear because it’s not like in a Jewish synagogue where, you know, gentiles can come. You’re either a Jew or not Jew. But if you want to become a Jew, like you, you, you could convert. I mean, that you could be a Noah hide. It’s the, it’s a clear, very simple process. It was very convoluted. I’m already at a place that for me the was the foundation, the New Testament was supposed to be laid upon. And if anything is to happen, like Christians should give, get back to that foundation is where my mind was. As I’m in it, there was just a lot of questions, but in the beginning it was a, it was a strange place to be. I did get to learn some of the Jewish traditions and, you know, like, the, and they, you know, like the, the she, like you start learning some of the liturgy and stuff. And so it was good exposure. It wasn’t a full synagogue though. It was, and I started going to like the J C C there and stuff sometimes. And let me ask you a question because it different.

I’m very, very, very familiar with the Messianic Jewish movement. And there are some Messianic Jewish synagogues that openly discourage conversion to Judaism because they don’t want to lose their congregants because they know if you start going to Jewish school, you’re probably gonna leave Jesus, you’re probably gonna convert. That’s really their fear. But, but they also emphasize that you mentioned this word convoluted. There’s a real, real tension between people that came up through the Hebrew Roots movement and embraced the one law position versus groups that acknowledge the distinction between Jews and non Jews and the obligations to tour that each group has according to that. So, so the Baru hashem, would they have fallen within the one law concept or would they have been more of the distinction between Jews and non Jews?

Well, the distinction between Jews and non Jews, right?

So they didn’t expect you as a non Jew to be fully tore observant, but they were happy to have this. Right. Right. I only, I’m only saying that for the sake of the audience who doesn’t understand what we’re talking about.

They kind of, it, they, they kind of discouraged it actually, they didn’t offer a conversion, for gentiles who felt like Victoria was for them. So, it was kind of, it was weird because I felt like the Torah was for me and I wanted to participate in a full tour service. It was not a full tour service. It was, there was Torah elements, but it was basically a church service with Torah elements. But the messages were still very full of Jesus and New Testament and Galatians this and if he was that what that statement of from the Trinity, I think they were M J A, a Messianic Jewish alliance of America or whatever. That one was the M J A A. Yeah. The M J A A does affirm the Trinity.

Yeah. Yeah. So they have a relationship with it but they do affirm it. And then the reason, the reason they affirm it primarily is they don’t, they don’t lose their their Baptist funding. Yeah.

You know what? I don’t, I think they’re M J A A or U M J C one of those two. But, yeah, U M J C is definitely Trini. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, it basically was a church that met on Saturday and did some Jewish stuff. But I appreciate it, you know, the, the traditional Jewish persons. What was the makeup would you say of, of?

And this is my last question as you go on here and this is just for the sake of the audience again. But what would you say the makeup percentage wise was of Baruch Hashem, the congregation? You’re part of that you got married in between Jews and non Jews. Like how many percentage of Jews versus non Jews?

Actual Jews? I’d say at least 80% gentiles. I don’t even know if it was 20% Jews about five Jews in a congregation of a few 100 and they were probably in mixed marriages.

Right. Yes.

Yes. Mixed marriages. Yes. Right.

OK. That, that I’m only bringing that forth so that we don’t leave the audience in the dark as to the kind of environment that you were in. But yeah, so he, I would now question the status of some of the Jews, but I don’t know, like, yeah, nobody who is truly observant of Judaism, maybe unaffiliated Jews who came to Jesus, who had it that were related, married to a Christian and wanted to have a Jewish Christian experience or their significant other other would be my read, I guess.

But nobody who is just like deeply authentically Jewish, maybe culturally Jewish but wanted to have a Christian version of, I mean, like I mean, a Jewish version of Christianity. So then about this time, my wife through her work decides to move to California. We end up in Santa Maria, California and we are involved in a small Messianic group there for about two years. And then Doctor Raymond Gannon who was part of the Jewish Voice Ministries was looking to start a branch of Kings Seminary in Phoenix, Arizona. And I forget when I was at some Messianic conference and he, you know, he’s talking to everybody. And I distinctly remember being talked to by him and invited to Phoenix to get involved in the startup of this Messianic yeshiva. So they called it I question that status now. But, you know, let’s just give Jewish names to a Christian Bible college. But so, yeah, I, I, we, we my family moved to Phoenix to get involved in the, the Kings Seminary, Jewish Voice Ministry. Again, I always like kept running into like contradictions within the stuff that was being presented. So I never full on became I did ministry here and there and missionary work, I never became like the head pastor of anything within that. At that time, though I was working with the assemblies of God and I did start kind of the paperwork process to become ordained with the assemblies of God. I had completed all my hours and this that and the other and there, you know, but we should mention we should mention as an aside that a huge portion of the Messianic Jewish movement comes out of assemblies of God.

Assemblies of God as a denomination has always been at least mildly supportive of these Hebraic elements, the blowing of the show and all these different things. I’ve always kind of embraced that and then you also have a another whole element that comes out of the Southern Baptist movement.

Yes, that was the other, I was gonna say assemblies and Southern Baptist.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So, yeah.

So, so the, and, and I should also mention that the while I’m talking and, and I interrupted you the the Jewish voice. So, so one of the things and, and you don’t have to address this now, but maybe as you continue to tell your story, we can discuss this a little bit. One of the things that I found shocking. For instance, I, I was enrolled in King’s University. I was an online student from the Texas campus under Doctor David Rudolph. And had some correspondence with him and of course, he wrote that book. I forget the title of it, but he wrote a, basically a poem within Judaism book. And anyways, I ended up getting pushed out because I was non Trinita by then. So I, I used to argue with people in, in the group chat in the class about, I used to argue about the, the bogus of the Trinity. And, and so finally, one of my professors is like, you do realize that King’s University embraces the cardinal doctrines of the evangelical world, including the Trinity. And I said, well, that’s kind of a, I remember saying that that’s really kind of a of a nonstarter for me. How can you claim to be teaching AAA return to the Jewish roots of the faith? And yet you’re embracing a doctrine that didn’t exist in the church until the 4th 5th century. And that, that was like it, like it, it stonewalled me like it ended my education. And so you mentioned kings and that’s why I, that’s why I mentioned that because I’m like, wow, yeah, like, like they, so Jewish voice when I was a Christian, I saw organizations like Jewish voice and one for Israel and Jews for Jesus as doing a positive work of trying to reach Jews. And after converting to Judaism, I, I detested these organizations because of their subversive types of missionary work that they did.

Anyways, I didn’t mean to jump ahead of you. But no, no, you’re good. Well, yes, subversive. It was my interactions with Doctor Gannon. See, you know, I already had like a suspicion of the ministry from everything I saw before Bible College. The intentional control tactics. The manipulation that the, the, the, the willful knowledge that you’re intentionally manipulating people. I was aware of that kind of stuff. I naively thought maybe Messianic ju Judaism is somehow different. But there’s all the infighting between the different groups and whatnot but to see that they were really just functionally churches and that everybody that ran them were just pastors. And there wasn’t anything different between the Messianic synagogues and churches. They were churches with different names. I mean, the semantics was different, but it was the same. But really like the, the pivotal moment for me was sitting in the office of Dr Raymond Gannon at Jewish voices ministry, a gentile. Well, that’s no prob problem eating, you know, a bacon cheeseburger talking about dressing up and wearing teat seats in a Jewish community to try to convert. He said to look more orthodox and the orthodox to convert Jews. And I’m just sitting here like, wow. Mind you, you know, I, I my studies, you know, personal studies never ended. I’m reading the book Messianic Judaism by Rabbi Carol or Shapiro, which refers to gentiles dressing up as cross dressing. And I’m like, well, he just said it, I mean, you know, again, it’s does a thing hold up against itself and you’re hearing outside criticism and you’re like, well, you just made, you made the case like, wow, ok. At that point, I was done with Messianic Judaism. I had started studying Hebrew at the, you know, you already have your foot in an authentic space at this point.

Well, just, I, I didn’t mean you, you were about to say it, but so at the time that you’re meeting with Dr Gannon, you already have yourself, somewhat within actual authentic Jewish space.

I mean, I, yeah, I mean, I, I would, you know, I think I had visited. Well, yeah. Well, well, yeah. No, I had for a while when we were in Santa Maria before moving to Phoenix, we went to Passover Abba. We went to Shabbat at a, it was, it was, you know, it was a wonderful, very small environment. You know, they make the big meal and very festive and all the blessing and it was a environment. I, I really like the, you know, the Shabbat meals and Pass. So, yeah, we had, we had been to Habad. So, yes. And then, but even when I was started with the Messianic movement and, and Dallas, we went to the J C C for various holidays and festivals. So, I mean, I had, I, I didn’t have anything in my mind against crossing lines into just like straight Jewish space. I would go into Jewish Spaces and just, you know, it’s cool. But you, but you’re personally, you’re not going there hoping to convert them to Messianic Judaism.

You’re just going there for Jewish life, right.

Yeah, just Passover Shabbat, you know, these things that Messianic are talking about. I’m just going there, like, ok, well, how do they do it? You know? And I want to do it the way they do it and two, like, see how it is without Jesus, you know, and then it’s like you, you start to see the inappropriate and misplaced of Jesus being put in this stuff. But that’s a whole another one. But, you know. Yeah. So, I mean, yes, I had, I had never, but, yeah, even before I went to Bible college, you know what? I, well, I went to a Passover before I went to Bible college.

A Jewish Passover or an evangelical Passover.

I’m trying to, well, it was, it was a synagogue meeting in a church because they lost their building. Oh, wow. Ok. So it was an interesting space and it probably, I would, I probably, I probably, I probably felt safe because it was within a church building but they had their Adesh and everything and no, it was Jewish. So, yeah, I mean, I, I guess I didn’t track all my, like, it couldn’t have been orthodox.

That had to have been, no, I think it was reform.

I think it was right, because the reform would have no problem with that.

The orthodox would never do that.

Oh, yeah. There are, there are, there’s a, a woman rabbi and so, yeah. Ok. Got it.

Right. Ok.

And, and for being Christian reform is a very comfortable space, you know, it’s not too, they don’t care, they don’t care. You know. So, people don’t realize that.

Right. Isn’t that true? You and I, like, we, we’ve experienced this but we, we talk to Christians and, and a lot of people like that have interests in, in exploring, Judaism. They don’t realize that if you go to, like a reform or even a many cases, a conservative sho, they don’t care if you’re Christian, you don’t have to hide it from them. Like they don’t, they really don’t care. They’re happy to have you there and visit and, you know, it, it’s really not an issue. It’s only, it’s an issue for the Messianic Jewish congregations because they’re trying to get you to be part of their space, the, the Jewish like, yeah, you can come, come celebrate Shabbat with us. You know, we’ll have a church together. They don’t care, they could care less.

Yeah, I was, I was a gentile Messianic and I went to Habad Passover in Shabbat and no way they welcome me any time. Yeah. Yeah. It was just like nothing. It was, it was, yeah. As long as they don’t try to proselytize. Yeah. Right. So, so, yeah, I mean, so, yeah, about that time I started, you know, I was going to the, the in Phoenix to learn Hebrew and I, I took a course on Mooar at the Jewish learning.

Yeah. You and I discussed that last time you talked to me. Yeah. And I was getting into, like Hebrew Jewish spirituality.

And I got, I guess I settled on the conservative movement as where I wanted to convert. We were going to the, new in Scottsdale. And it’s a, a rabbi Schlomo Carl style minion. So, very spiritual dan, stuff. Yeah. Yeah, it was, it was very, you know, it was very, very, I liked it a lot. Also the, the Jewish catalog, Rabbi Strassfeld. So he came out of kind of a rest reconstruction Jewish experience. So, very eclectic kind of pick your traditions, figure out how to make it work for you, make Judaism your own kind of thing. So it was a very, it’s very eclectic, very spiritual environment. So we started on the new show. I eventually approached the rabbi about going through conversion. That whole congregation went through a Mooar thing. And it, it was, it was a, it was kind of a Mozart thing within the Conservative movement. So, it was more mindfulness, meditative. But definitely, you know, group meetings in your, like in, in individual, the Ruda and stuff like that. It was, it was a very spiritual experience. I liked it a lot. It helped me connect with it. It was definitely a good transition. I like the, the, the of the, the carl box style. It was, it was a good, it was a good experience and then, you know, we’re, we’re going through the conversion. You know, part of what got us to this, you, you, this is you and your wife, right?

Going through.

Yeah. And my, and my son was born at this point, my son was born in 2007. You know, so he was a little kid when we were in California. And he was, you know, one of the deciding factors for my ex was, my son said he wanted to go through conversion. And so she was like, that helped my ex decide she wanted to do it too. And so we decided to do it as a family. And, you know, so, you know, we were, we, we took the, the Jewish courses at a, at a conservative show. New is an independent show, but the rabbi is a conservative. So our, you know, our, our conversion was conservative but it was independent minion.

So he was from the Jewish theological Seminary, but the school itself was unaffiliated.

Yes, it was unaffiliated. Yeah. And, and, and he, and he was influenced more like by the Reconstruction Judaism. So it was a little more eclectic, a little more open. It was, it was very interesting, it was very spiritual but very open. You know, as I was, I was, yeah, I was converted by someone from the same persuasion.

Yeah.

Yeah. So, I mean, it was, it was interesting. I mean, it, and it worked and then, after our conversion they, you know, we, I got to finally have my Jewish wedding. Well, one of the things like, so in the conversion, one of my favorite memories was going to the, with my son, to complete our, our, our, you know, conversion. Being able to do that with my son is just, it’s, it’s a moment. I always cherish. It is a beautiful thing that must have been amazing. It was, you know, and to have that with my son is, is a beautiful thing. And then, you know, we, we ended up getting married and having a Jewish wedding that I wanted in the first place. A real of our marriage that didn’t save our marriage because it ended up not working out. But I got to have the Jewish wedding I wanted to have and, you know, we’re raising our kids Jewish and, you know, that was, that was what I had set out wanting to do. And I was finally in a space though where my mental health was a lot better. And I was no longer holding on to like Jesus as you know, anything. So let’s, let’s talk, let’s talk about that for a minute.

I know we’ve gone kind of long here, but I feel like this is a really, really healthy interview. So hopefully those who are watching this, maybe you can break it up into two parts or something. But what, what point? Because I, I don’t know that you can even pinpoint it, but maybe you can. So at some point during your journey, now, obviously, you’ve, you’ve articulated very clearly how you always were attracted more to the knock and always to the hera perspective. It sounds like through the Brownsville thing, you got exposed kind of the to the festivals. I know when I was, when I was associated with F F O Z. there was a number of individuals and of course, I was friends with all those guys and I don’t really have much relationship with them. Now, I’m still friends with Tony Toby Janay. But there was always this conversation about the different doorways that people enter the Messianic space. One was through study of the text, study of the Torah. One was through the charismatic expression of trying to re recapture the, you know, the show and, and the, and the, and, and there was another door that was through the festival. So people that started studying the biblical festival and the, and the biblical feasts, Many people entered the Messianic world through that door. But at one point for you, now you, you’re, you’re speaking in glowing terms about your authentic Jewish conversion. You and I can, I can relate with this personally on a very emotional level. The, the highlight of my Jewish experience was the immersion in the Kosher Mikva at the conversion ceremony. That, that was a deeply moving emotional experience for my wife and I, and I don’t care what anybody thinks about it. It, it was very real and it was something that was very personal. And people can dismiss it if they want. I don’t care, it doesn’t matter because it meant a lot to me and I’m sure you feel the same way. But there’s a process right to where you get to that point, like how, how did you get from the Messianic mindset where you were like, you got Jesus in your back pocket, but you’re studying this a break perspective to where you were comfortable, which so many, many, many people are not comfortable doing this. Many people are afraid to let go of Jesus. But where, where, what point did you have in your journey where you were comfortable? Just kind of letting the Jesus concept just kind of float away on the water and just embrace your Jewish identity. How did that happen for you?

Well, I guess laying the scholarly foundational work, you know. So I had, I had built a vast library, vast library. Oh my gosh, it was in of just everything about Second Temple Judaism, you know, the parting of the ways, first century Judaism, the ancient, near east. I’ve done a lot of studying, just an intense library. I mean, you know, I had Christian resources, Messianic resources. I started really picking up a lot of the historical critical, textual, critical stuff. You know, Bart Eman James, Tabor, Higham mcabee, the, you know, I was, I really was getting to and I had, I had bought the entire, like the anti nice fathers and, you know, just a lot of these early texts that we don’t one, they’re not considered canon by most Christian organizations. But you know, like this whole, look at things and test it against itself kind of thing. So I was, you know, the, the diversity of gospels in the new in, in the, in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th century, more so than what we have the echoes of the early Jewish Christianity. What I came to like and, and this was before I left, like, I don’t know what point I came to this end, but I was reading the epistle of Peter to James in its reception. It talks about the receiving the traditions that came from the 70 elders and following the traditions according to Moses Moses and the initiation into the tradition of Moses. And then it goes on to explain my immersion in water and a communal meal. And then in James’s response, he’s saying we only give this to men of the circumcision. And so you have to be circumcised. You have to go to a, and I’m like, whatever this is talking about is Jewish, it’s not Christian. They were converting people to Judaism. So that, I mean, at some point and I’m like, I don’t remember at what point I, when I was in the Messianic movement, I, I, because I had a blog, a paradox parables that at one point got up to 250,000 views a year. I used to have a, a Messianic Sitter app for, for doing Liturgy on on Android and iphone and stuff like that. I was in communication with, I had the same thing.

Yeah. Yeah, I had I had been in communication with F F O C, you know, about their, in its production and stuff.

Come up with it because it was like years. Yeah, they, they came out, I was talking to a, at a conference one time and I’m like, you guys ever gonna come out with it.

He just about hit his face. He was like, it’s a hard thing.

Yeah. Yeah, I remember I got early versions of that before. It was fully out too. Yeah, I, you know, I, yeah, I was at a place that there was this Jewish foundational thing before Christianity and my, my involvement when it, because I, when I was in Phoenix, we were part of like a Torah Club thing. Was, you know, like Christians need to know about the Jewish roots. But really the, if a Christian coming from a Christian, it’s, it’s a different thing. It’s not actually what it was. So, yeah, in the process of this getting back to the original thing. Mhm. I finally get to a place where, I just don’t be based on everything I read. I don’t believe the New Testament, based on my experience from when I was a child. All the questions I had Bible college that I had Messianic. Like The New Testament never became a thing that, didn’t have holes, it always had holes for me. So it, it came to a place where I just, I didn’t believe it to be a sacred text anymore and I didn’t believe it to be telling me the truth. And I, I just, I didn’t believe in Jesus. So, and that was before my conversion for sure. You know, I figured that I just, you know, I appreciate you taking the time to kind of walk us through that because, it’s always right.

It isn’t it? And I’m sure you experienced this as well as I do. People are always shocked because you’re taught as a Christian, especially as an evangelical, not so much as a Catholic, but you’re taught as an evangelical Christian that once you, you know, the, the old verse, right? I think is in Thessalonian, is that once you’ve tasted of the fruits of the Lord and then fall away that maybe it’s in Peter, that they, that they, it’s like, you’re damned like, like, like, like once you’ve tasted it and walk away like that, that’s a really bad place to be in. And people are always shocked when you tell them that. Oh, I used to be like, I tell people, I used to be a pastor. I had to, I had, I tell the story of my book, which I’m gonna send you a copy of it by the way because you need to read it because it’s so much like your story. I was at a grocery store during the COVID event because my business slowed down because of all the lockdown. So I took a job where my wife worked and I was just stocking grocery shelves at public’s grocery store. And I, I was, I had recently converted. So I was like fresh out of my conversion. So I was working, I had my Z seat. I had a, and constantly having conversations in the store with people like, oh, wow. He, he’s a Jew, right? Because he identifies as a Jew. And I had this guy that came up to me and he was this radical dude, right? He was like this older guy. He had long white white hair and a cowboy hat, long white beard. And and anyways, he walks up behind me, I’m standing on a ladder, stocking shells on the top row. And he’s like, Shalom and I just kind of turned and I said, Shalom and he’s like, and he’s smiling at me and he’s like, he’s like, you’re Jewish. I’m like, yeah, he says, do you know you’re Messiah? Because I’m in the Bible belt. Right. And, and I knew where he was going and I just smiled at him. I didn’t really want to have a scene. I didn’t wanna get into a thing with him, you know, but I just smiled at him. I’m like, yeah, I just nodded and I said, I just waited for him to talk really? And, and he was like, he’s like, do you know Jesus? And I said, I don’t believe in Jesus. And so I, I was giving him an out like here I am, I’m openly Jewish, like the polite thing to do is to not press the issue. But this guy was not, you know, he was his eyes spinning in his head, right? And he’s just like, well, that’s because you haven’t met him yet. And so I’m thinking to myself and I describe this in the book, I’m like, do I go there? Do I really tell him or do I just let him think? Whatever he wants to think and keep doing my job because I’m on the clock, right. I’m feeling like this sense of obligation, like I’m being paid to work, I’m not being paid to talk about this stuff. And, and there’s people around, you know, and, and so, and he’s just, he’s, but he’s being so insistent. And I said to him, I said, I said, I just told you, I don’t believe in Jesus. I said, I actually used to be a pastor. I was born again at one time when I was a young man and he just literally, it was like, somebody shot him in the chest, he just like backs up and he gets this look of horror in his face. And he’s like, how could you experience that and turn your back? He says, oh, I’ll pray for you, I’ll pray for you and he walks away and he wouldn’t talk to me anymore. And I was like, I was just trying to be friendly and it’s like when you experience that and you realize the brainwashing, right? And then you get involved in the Jewish community and it’s so different than that. It’s so you don’t have that level of like this. Like you mentioned this dichotomy of heaven and hell and good and evil. It’s just so anyways, I didn’t mean to take the floor but, but I just really relate with what you’re talking about. Like, like you, you go through this experience and, and now you feel of course, unfortunately, you lost your marriage. But, but now how would you describe today? Like, is your son still interested in Jewish studies or has he has it waned or like how, how does that work for you guys?

So, you know, divorces are complicated and yeah. Right. Judaism is still a part of our family life. You know, my kids are here, we do Shabbat, we do the festivals, they were here for Rosh Hashana. They’re gonna be here for a SIM tour on Friday. So Judaism is still part of our life. Mhm You know, I have a teenage son so maybe it had more meaning to him when he was younger than it does now. But yeah, but you know, my son, my son, you know, his values are still influenced by, you know, the Torah and Judaism and being Jewish, being Jewish is part of his life. He has to go back to a family that’s mixed. You know, his mom’s become non observant and her extended family are hardcore Christians. So they’ve had to make the choice of being Jewish and defining themselves as such. But I mean, it’s still meaningful to us. Yeah, but I know my, my 16 year old daughter was shocked one day when she was still in because she’s doing online school now, she’s gonna be going to trade school.

But when she was in high school still, I think when she was a freshman they did a study of the Holocaust in her in her school and we had converted, like maybe a year before that. And and her teacher, at one point when they were asking people where they were coming from, they were trying to be very inclusive. You know, this is the Bible belt. Most people here are Christians, evangelical. And but we have a mixed community here. We have a lot of foreigners here. We have a lot of Buddhists. We have a lot of Muslims. We have, it’s a very, it’s a very egalitarian culture here now because of all the growth. And and anyway, she was asked to her perspective as a young woman who was Jewish on the holocaust and she, she was mortified like she came home like so stressed because all of a sudden it hit home for her. Oh my gosh, I’m Jewish. Like this is something I have to come to terms with because she wasn’t raised like that, you know. So there’s a lot of paradigm shifts you go through. But yeah, so I, I can totally understand what you’re saying. And like my, my, my my daughter is now who went through that with us. My oldest daughter is agnostic now, my son-in-law who was married to her, that they were going to convert, but then decided not to, I have an oldest son who’s a pastor, a Calvinist pastor up in Vermont. He refuses to read my book. But we have a great relationship. Thankfully and, his wife does not want us to influence her Children. However, and then we have, my 21 year old daughter who is non-religious completely, she has no interest in any religion at all. My 29 year old son wants nothing to do with religion. And my 16 year old now, she’s very thankful that she went through the Jewish thing with us because it gave her tremendous perspective and open mind. And that’s the thing that I’m most thankful for from our conversion was that it allowed my Children to unplug from a dogmatic mindset and be able to look at. And that’s one of the reasons why you and I both share our affinity for the Conservative movement because there’s a lot, a lot more intellectual diversity that’s allowed you’re allowed to explore critical scholarship, you’re not considered a heretic. And that’s kind of where I was going with this as, as we start around the bend here. And I don’t want to cut you short in any way. But, I’d like you to talk about how you became attracted. More, of course, you converted to the Conservative movement as you’ve already described. But what is it about the intellectual tradition that attracts you? And also as a, as a, as an aside to that my question for you would be how has your study of critical scholarship related to the to impacted your faith in any kind of tangible ways.

Very good one. So I very much appreciate critical scholarship and the fact that critical scholarship doesn’t challenge leaders in the Conservative Movement movement in the way that some others do. I mean, my, my rabbi has openly talked about the document hypothesis and when certain parts of the were written, the cultural context of it, you know, of the, the different sources. This like certain portions written during the or the the Dudar or, you know, the priestly sources, whatever. I mean, it’s nice to be in a space where these things are openly talked about and actually used as the method of explaining this thing versus this is exactly how it came down from Mount Sina. So, you know, I like the intellectual rigor where we can embrace critical scholarship that this is a cultural document built within the ancient, near Eastern culture. And the Sumerian and Acadian myth may have played into the building of this folkloric hero. I would say that yes, there’s probably a historical Abraham and Moses, but these are folkloric heroes. I mean, the, it’s nice to be within a tradition where we can say, hey, this is probably folkloric hero heroes, but this is also the Jewish tradition and Jewish culture and it’s best understood within the Jewish tradition and culture. When you take the and you look at it with it through the lens of the document hypothesis. Well, the specifically, and then you look at the cultural underpinnings and what may have made the text and you have people who are willing to look at it and say our faith isn’t diminished because humans created this document and it came from a people and a tradition. The fact that I mean, I, I love the story of Abraham, like the story, not the biblical one, but Abraham and Earl of Calia. Basically, you know, it’s on the trading routes up there in, you know, would be Iraq and you know, the the is the central area of Susan, Susan treaty between a vassal and his client state. And so the is the vassal, the king is hashem, the almighty God. Well, the contracts that they wrote in the trade route, you know, Acadian, they, they have these vases and they would write on top of the vases and clay, the uniform tablets, the little check marks. And the first like writing we have is Acadian which are these covenants, the contracts between, you know, shipping and receiving it of, you know, products from one place to another. They enter into a covenant or contract. Well, this idea of covenant is the foundation for what becomes the covenant, you know, that we, that is handed down to Moses, right? We have the epic of Gilgamesh and the legends of summer and this stuff. And they have similar flood and creation stories. Now, all of this stuff feeds into and I like being in a tradition where we can say, hey, the these people probably existed. But what we have in the Torah is legendary and mythological. But based on actual people, I like the, the study of the ancient, near east. And I like, and I even like the benefit of the Talmud is giving us the cultural understanding of what this text meant in the debates about it. But I look at it totally secular. I don’t look at, you know, when it’s funny when I am hypocritical of the New Testament and people are like, well put your scripture and I’m like, I subscribe to the document hypothesis. I don’t subscribe to the before or something like, like they, they create this straw man argument like, oh, you’re a Jew and you’re having this debate. So, you know, by the way, you know, God screwed up with the as well. And you’re like, well, it’s a human document. Yes. Conversation are we having because you wanna have the conversation that you would have if you ask me a question or the one way you assume things. I, I, I do believe in God and I believe that the Torah and the does represent the Jewish tradition and the Jewish people and it’s best understood that way. And the Western world has been changed by the ethics of the, so it’s a very valuable document. But do I believe that the Kuma, I keep saying Kuma, the Torah, the first five books is the literal words of God handed to Moses on Mount Sinai. No, but I believe that there is something back to what I said at the beginning about spirituality and, and what I believe that there’s the divine spark and that’s what and the Pope, the husk that covers things. I feel that Judaism gets closest to, right? But I don’t feel like anybody is perfect and always, right? In my view, in summation for me, it’s the closest in what works for me and my family. But at the same time, I’m, I’m non dogmatic about that point. Like it’s OK if people disagree and morality and whatever.

So let, let, let’s wrap things up. This has been a really enjoyable time. I’ve really enjoyed having the opportunity to get to know you better and hopefully that the audience feels the same and you have this project that you’re doing, pulling the thread podcast, you have it on Spotify, you have it on, I think you’re still on youtube, right? Or you’re off youtube now?

No, I’m on youtube and everywhere you can podcast, I mean that you listen to podcast, it’s, it’s everywhere. Yeah.

So, what have you been, have you been enjoying this process? And what are you hoping to to do with it. What are you hoping to accomplish with it?

I have been enjoying the process. And like I was getting messages from a guy today on Messenger about how it’s been beneficial for his journey. Going through something similar like you and myself and like the entire Messianic congregation that converted to Judaism that I had on recently. That was, yeah. So, I mean, you know, I’m finding it beneficial. Yes. And the conversations, the information and some of the interesting people that I’m gonna have on the future up here. I look forward to having conversations with people who their works have influenced, like why I do what I do.

Yeah, I’m hoping to introduce you to a few people too.

Yeah. So, I, I’m enjoying it. I, my publication schedule could probably be more consistently but, you know, between work being a father and all the other things I have, you know, I do have a bunch of stuff planned out. And, yeah, I look forward to keeping going with this and continuing to kind of be benefit from. Yeah, I, I think your articles are excellent.

I think you really put a lot of effort into it. I think you, they’re well thought out and I encourage people to, I’ve tried to share some of the things that you’ve put out. I haven’t shared as much as probably I should. But, you know, I take some risks owning a business here in the Bible belt when I put stuff out there that, you know, and even that criticizes mainstream Christianity sometimes gets some blowback. But at this point, I’m 55 years old and, you know, if people are gonna judge me based on that, then I don’t really need him in my life, so I’m not really worried about it. But the, I think you’re doing a fantastic job and a fantastic service. I used to be in this space. I used to have a very active youtube channel. I had about 8, 900 subscribers at one point, which is very modest. But but it was I started getting some blowback from some of the the nastier elements of the atheistic crowd that that just, I don’t know, very, very, very temperamental and I just didn’t wanna deal with the drama. And I, I’m, I’m busy building my business and, and trying to take care of my family and what you’re doing I think is great and I just want to encourage anyone that’s watching this to just continue learning. I’m sure you, you, you you feel the same, any, any last thoughts you have before we sign up?

No, thanks for doing this. And yeah, I hope that this was beneficial. It’s kind of fun doing it in reverse and being asked a question.

Yeah. So hopefully we’ll have more conversations. And like I said, when we get off the air, I, I have a couple things I want to share with you. But if you have time but but I’ve had fun doing this and I’m glad we finally connected.

All right. Yeah, that sounds good. And yeah, we can do this again some time. And yeah, thanks for tuning in and make sure you guys follow on the youtube, join the Facebook group, follow it, Jesus, the Jew within Judaism dot com. And make sure you guys plug in and like and subscribe.