In this episode of the Pulling the Threads Podcast, Adam Green engages in a profound conversation with Jeramiah Giehl, delving into Jeramiah’s transition from Messianic Judaism to Conservative Judaism. The discussion spans Jeramiah’s personal alignment with Judaism’s moral and ethical principles, emphasizing the Conservative Jewish branch’s historical and critical approach to interpreting the Torah. Adam passionately explores the mystical aspects of early Christianity, arguing that Paul was a mystic and examining the influence of Essenes and the Dead Sea Scrolls on Paul’s beliefs. The dialogue also encompasses the impact of Greco-Roman culture on the New Testament, scrutinizing intentional alterations and redaction layers. Key topics include the historical and textual analysis of religious texts, the influence of Hellenistic Judaism, Paul’s mysticism, and the evolution of religious beliefs. The episode poses key questions about the influences on religious traditions and the evolution of beliefs over time, providing a captivating exploration into the tapestry of early Christianity and Judaism.
In this episode of the Pulling the Threads Podcast, Adam Green engages in a thought-provoking interviews with Jeramiah Giehl, exploring Jeramiah’s profound journey from Christianity to Judaism. The focal point of their discussion revolves around Jeramiah’s transition from Messianic Judaism to an authentic embrace of Conservative Judaism. Jeramiah sheds light on his personal, moral, and ethical resonance with Judaism, particularly within the Conservative Jewish branch, underscoring their historical and critical approach to interpreting the Torah.
Adam Green passionately delves into the mystical realm, presenting a compelling argument that Paul, a central figure in early Christianity, was a mystic. Drawing from the insights of scholars like Gershom Sham and Daniel Boyer, Adam explores the connections between Paul’s beliefs and the roots of early Christianity. The influence of mystical traditions, such as those of the Essenes and the Dead Sea Scrolls, on Paul’s mystical convictions is a key focal point.
The comprehensive discussion between Adam and Jeramiah extends to the impact of Greco-Roman culture on the New Testament. They scrutinize Paul’s role, contemplating the amalgamation of historical and literary figures, intentional alterations made to align with specific ideologies, and the layers of redaction that have shaped the New Testament over time.
Key Topics Covered:
- Transition from Christianity to Judaism
- Historical and textual analysis of religious texts
- Influence of Hellenistic Judaism on the New Testament
- Paul’s Mysticism and Connection to Early Christianity
- Enochian and Essene Mysticism
- Influence of Greco-Roman Culture on the New Testament
- Evolution of religious beliefs and traditions
- Historical Jesus and Early Christian Texts
- Identity of James and Jude
- Goals of Judaism and Christianity
- Core focus of Judaism
- Early Christian Beliefs and Traditions
The topics you’ve outlined for the discussion between Adam Green and Jeramiah Giehl are incredibly fascinating and invite thought-provoking dialogue. Here are some creative possibilities for each section:
Unraveling Faith, History, and Textual Evolution
This episode of Pulling the Threads plunges into a fascinating conversation between Jeramiah Giehl and Adam Green, exploring the intersection of personal experiences, religious transitions, and historical analysis.
We delve into Jeramiah’s compelling transition from Christianity to Judaism, specifically examining his shift from Messianic Judaism to a deeper engagement with Conservative Judaism. His focus on the faith’s ethical and historical approach to interpreting the Torah offers a unique perspective on Jewish identity.
Adam Green takes the stage, passionately presenting Paul as a mystical figure within early Christianity. Supported by scholars like Gershom Sham and Daniel Boyer, his argument explores the influence of mystical traditions like the Essenes and the Dead Sea Scrolls on Paul’s beliefs.
The discussion then delves into the intricate world of New Testament textual analysis. Adam and Jeramiah dissect the impact of Greco-Roman culture on the text, particularly focusing on the figure of Paul and the evolutionary process of redaction. They explore the possibility of merged historical figures, intentional alterations to align with specific ideologies, and the cumulative layers that have shaped the New Testament through the ages.
Key Questions Unraveled: Throughout the episode, a tapestry of thought-provoking questions emerges:
- How do historical and textual influences shape religious traditions?
- What role did Hellenistic Judaism play in early Christianity’s development?
- How have religious beliefs and traditions evolved over time?
Pulling the Threads invites listeners to go beyond mere belief and engage in critical thinking. This episode is a treasure trove for anyone interested in the evolution of faith, the intricacies of religious texts, and the dynamic interplay between personal journeys and historical narratives.
Join Adam Green and Jeramiah Giehl as they unravel the threads of mysticism, transitions, and influences, offering listeners a captivating exploration into the intricate tapestry of early Christianity and Judaism.
Full Transcript:
Know More News Interview for Podcast
Wed. Jan 10, 2024
7:51 – Adam Green
It’s good to talk with you. I wanted to talk with you for a long time since you 1st. Your Youtube channel I saw when you 1st started.
7:58 – Jeramiah Giehl
All right, Yeah, yeah. It started as a, I was motivated when I was asked to go and do an interview on somebody else’s podcast and then I was like, you know, I got stuff to say and a bunch of people wanted to do interviews, so I was like, all right, let’s do this.
8:13 – Adam Green
So yeah, I was watching your channel since it 1st started and uh. I’ve been a fan and then I’ve been reading some of your blogs as well, the topics you’ve been focusing on. Ebionites Origins of Christianity James, Jesus, Paul. Your channel is pulling the thread tracing. Jesus beyond Christianity I noticed with an X, too. I’ve, I watched your journey from Messianic Judaism to authentic Judaism. Actually, I saw your other one, which was from Christianity to Judaism. So what was it that like in a To summarize, what was it that made you leave Christianity for Judaism?
8:56 – Jeramiah Giehl
I mean, it was a process, of course, for sure, lifetime of exploration. You know, I’d say Judaism is a personal, moral, ethical decision for myself that aligns with my, my values. You know, personally I went to a more uh, philosophical, history, science based branch of Judaism. I don’t know if you know the different branches, but Conservative Judaism, we embrace things like the document hypothesis and we look at you know, the, you know the, the Tno, the Tora with a historical critical lens and that informs our decision.
9:35 – Jeramiah Giehl
So we don’t, we don’t look at the Tora as. You know, like the more orthodox inclined would say, it’s, I mean, if you’re using Christian terms, the, you know, infallible Word of God.
9:49 – Adam Green
You’re not taking it literally. It’s metaphors and symbolism, right?
9:54 – Jeramiah Giehl
That it’s a historical document of the people of Israel and that it it holds the traditions and the self thought they had of themselves, of the of the time. Now if you want to look at like any historical text from the time period, you got to look at it in the lend of the way lens of the way news is come. Covered these days because the text that we have, that became holy text really was their way of recording You know, a newspaper, you, they didn’t have the idea of a newspaper, but they’re recording their self thought of how they see the world, how they interact with other people.
10:30 – Jeramiah Giehl
And so if you look at it through the lens of, I’m reading a newspaper where as instead of at this point, we’ve, we’ve moved forward in time where we understand science and history and the things that we can’t control, we can explain through science. At the time when you can understand why I, as a good person, deals with difficulties and conflict and, and things that are outside of my control, there must be. A higher power causing and influencing these things.
10:55 – Adam Green
Oh.
10:57 – Jeramiah Giehl
So these, it’s like it’s, it’s a blend of, you know, history, but then it’s also, of course, myth making, you know, because for us within, you know, the, you would call it the secular Jews tradition, or at least the Conservative Jewish Um, you know, we see Moses and Abraham as legendary accounts of what was most likely historical people, but it’s legendary accounts, it’s not historical fact. Well, there’s historical fact mixed in with myth making that, you know, all cultures do this, you go back to Greek and Roman culture, you know.
11:33 – Adam Green
Foundational myths Garnet,
11:33 – Jeramiah Giehl
Ron Yeah.
11:35 – Adam Green
like Plato’s, a noble lie.
11:38 – Jeramiah Giehl
you know romulus the founder of you know the Roman empire um and the myth making that goes around who may have been a historical person but then they’re deified and there’s all this embellishment added to it whereas there may have actually been a person these stories are based upon just what we have in accepted text may not be one hundred percent factual there’s a lot of myth and legend in it So I mean as a person I get, I was, let me circle back to answer your question. As a person who is always gravitated towards rational reasoning, sounded things for me, You know the choice of going to Conservative Judaism fit because it fit with my, you know, value system, my morality and the way that I look at the world.
12:22 – Jeramiah Giehl
And I like to look at things with a critical lens. So I don’t want to be in anything where I can’t critically look at things. So that’s,
12:30 – Adam Green
And you used to be.
12:30 – Jeramiah Giehl
yeah,
12:31 – Adam Green
It’s been a while since I watch your testimony. Mo video But used to be Jehovah Witness, right?
12:36 – Jeramiah Giehl
So yeah, I mean my mom converted to Jo’s witness kind of due to trauma. But early on when I was like four, five years old, my father was not an adherent, he, you know, his He had his, his parents came from a Catholic background, but he wasn’t in here. But my mom kind of forced her way upon us and my father allowed it. So I was raised with a lot of the Johs witnessed. Very cultic mindset. You don’t question the truth, of course they call what they do the truth, but you know, a non founded claim, you know any.
13:08 – Adam Green
So you kind of went from believing that I mean Jehovah Witnesses don’t believe in the Trinity, they’re Unitarian. But you went from believing Jesus is the Messiah to believing Jesus is not the Messiah. How, how did that happen?
13:20 – Jeramiah Giehl
Oh, there’s a lot of steps in there but one. Textually, the Jehovah’s Witnesses base their claims upon the Greek New Testament. Going with the Greek New Testament before getting historical critical in it. Really, there’s not a support for Unitarianism within the Greek New Testament, if you look at it from the received text we have. Now when you get into textual criticism, we, you know, undermines the whole thing in many ways. But in my studies at the time, as I was trying to understand these ancient texts, going from this group says this, but the original text says this.
13:56 – Jeramiah Giehl
With the text I was looking at the Trinity made more sense basing my, some of my values because my values were more inclined towards the to knock at the time anyways. But um,
14:07 – Adam Green
What about like the prophecy fulfillment of Jesus did?
14:07 – Jeramiah Giehl
it, I mean.
14:13 – Adam Green
You used to think he of the Old Testament and now you don’t anymore.
14:19 – Jeramiah Giehl
you know, I don’t know if I ever. Of course I heard that probably propagated at some point,
14:27 – Adam Green
Like, I’ve seen you had Tovia Singer on,
14:27 – Jeramiah Giehl
but
14:29 – Adam Green
like, he’s about like, you know, debunking that Jesus fulfilled prophecies. Right, so is that is like Was Tovia part of your conversion to Judaism?
14:39 – Jeramiah Giehl
His teachings definitely, well, I want to say converts into Judaism, but in the information, Malay of information, I took in because I was taking in Bart, Airman James T. Boor, you know him? Maccabee um, and yeah,
14:54 – Adam Green
Eisenman.
14:54 – Jeramiah Giehl
you know, Eisen men, I mean very influential in the way I think, and then when it comes to like Jewish thought on these things, as Tovia Singer, he was influential but not, he didn’t play a role in my personal decision to convert to Judaism. That was, you know, more a personal morality choice.
15:13 – Adam Green
Was there any was there any? Thought of maybe going to no hid ism because I’ve heard a lot of, you know, there’s proponents, people leave Christianity and they become not that don’t convert to Judaism but become Noah hides and follow the seven laws of Noah.
15:29 – Jeramiah Giehl
to get to where you’re going, there’s kind of a journey, and it’s a historical critical journey, and it’s a textual study. To get there, I want to answer your one question 1st Did I superimpose Jesus as Messiah into the Tno? Now, I never really explored it, it, you know, And I always had problem with theological statements. One of my big issues when I did convert to Christianity, was involved in the Assemblies of God, was their theological statement. They tried to cram in and do is Isa Jesus into the, the Tanach and the New Testament.
16:03 – Jeramiah Giehl
And they’re just hopping around like gazelles trying to find scriptures, you know, on the mountain tops of text to say, well, this means this, this means that. And so I never fully bought into the theological statements because I always question the legitimacy of, like even in the context, it doesn’t always mean what they say it mean. But there was a moment.
16:21 – Adam Green
But but at one point, at one point you believe Jesus like fulfilled the prophecies of the Old Testament and then like, so now you just, you don’t think that a person ever actually did these things. You think that like the God. Gospels is myth, mostly myth.
16:36 – Jeramiah Giehl
I mean, yes, there is a lot of myth making. So, there was a period of time though, when I was going from Christianity and Messianic Judaism that I, I bought the Kool Aid and they were trying to put Jesus in all the festivals and all this kind of random stuff. A bit of it felt like a cloth that didn’t fit,
16:55 – Adam Green
Wait, hold on, wait. What do you mean putting? Jews are trying to put Jesus in festivals. What do you mean by that?
17:00 – Jeramiah Giehl
Messianic Jews not, not Jew Jews, but
17:03 – Adam Green
Michael Brown? I I’ve talked to Michael Brown a few times.
17:03 – Jeramiah Giehl
Michael Brown Okay, yes, so Messianic Jews, which I would uh, clarify to say they’re Christian, Hebrew Christians, but Authentic Jews. They’re Jews in the sense that Hellenistic Jews were Jews. They were culturally Jewish, but they didn’t adhere to the tenants of Judaism. They adhere more to Christianity. People who claim to be Jews were saying, you know, Jesus fulfills these things, which I always found odd because I, I had read the tac a few times as a child and honestly didn’t see the connection.
17:38 – Jeramiah Giehl
I didn’t feel a full connection, but you know, at the time I kind of just bought into the, the cool aid of the soup that was going on, you know,
17:48 – Adam Green
not even with isaiah fifty three ca like the new testament quotes isaiah fifty three like verbatim.
17:48 – Jeramiah Giehl
but it. I mean, it’s from the Greek Septuagint and it seems one it’s,
17:56 – Adam Green
Uhhuh.
17:58 – Jeramiah Giehl
that’s written to the Jewish people, not to an individual’s, you know, if you read the chapter before.
18:02 – Adam Green
Well, that’s the original context. But if you look at what Paul and the Christianity says,
18:04 – Jeramiah Giehl
Yeah,
18:07 – Adam Green
they don’t care about the original context.
18:09 – Jeramiah Giehl
well, and that’s,
18:09 – Adam Green
It’s like everything’s all of the sacred Scriptures are like a mystery where like they can,
18:10 – Jeramiah Giehl
that’s a problem.
18:14 – Adam Green
you know, connect the right verses and like reveal hidden secrets from God and stuff like that’s my understanding of what they were doing. I mean that that’s what the New Testament looks like,
18:23 – Jeramiah Giehl
Yes, and and to speak to that really so. The ideas of Mr. Kaba mysticism, the blending with Platonic thought, came from Hellenistic Judaism. That goes back to the Macbean period, which goes back to when Ptolemy commissioned the, you know Greek s tug. And so you know, you know, kind of, I don’t know if we’re going to get into this idea, but the New Testament is really a Roman sig up. It’s a, it’s a psychological operation to overtake and subd a people and then convince them to follow the Roman way.
18:59 – Jeramiah Giehl
They would co opt religions throughout, you know, the Middle East, mither ism, and they would try to blend them with their own Roman ideas. So one of the ways you conquer a culture is you take their text and you rewrite it, but you give it your flavor. And then you tell them that your way is the only way. So when they rewrote the Greek Septuagint, there’s changes in the Greek Septuagint from the original Hebrew. It influenced these subtle changes. Now the texts that form a basis of the Christian myth come from the Apocrypha, the texts that aren’t accepted in the, the normative Judaism, where the, the Hmas, the 1st five books are the foundation.
19:40 – Jeramiah Giehl
And then, you know. You have the prophets and, and the, the Ktu V and the writings, these, you know, those were not as central. Now the Apocrypha, this includes Tobit and Jubilee and the Enochian literature and was the Massman and a lot of that is where the mysticism,
19:56 – Adam Green
Wisdom of Solomon. Songs of Solomon.
20:01 – Jeramiah Giehl
yeah, so and a lott of that is found in the Greek tug. And it was, it was promoted by Hellenistic Jews who did not adhere to, to Judaism. They weren’t observant, they, they blended. More with Roman culture. They wanted to go to the bath houses. They wanted to go to the amphitheaters and coliseums. They didn’t. They weren’t so to or.
20:23 – Adam Green
They were the Alexandrian Jews, like Phyla, who who was like reading the To mystically and trying to kind of blend it with Hellenistic thought.
20:31 – Jeramiah Giehl
Yes.
20:31 – Adam Green
And have you have you heard the idea that the Nazarenes are the predecessors to the Ebionites, and that they split at one point and had some association with Alexandria and the Tal. It says that there was a temple in Alexandria, a huge diaspora there,
20:47 – Jeramiah Giehl
So I would invert that. I would say the Ebn Iits are the forerunners and the Nazarenes are an offshoot, and there are a few authors that hold that idea now.
20:57 – Adam Green
I’ve heard of both ways, too.
21:00 – Jeramiah Giehl
debate about that, The Nazarenes went more to the Hellenistic idea when they embraced Pauline. The Pauline literature and the Platonic philosophical traditions, and they became more Gnostic and really the the Pauline literature, the Gnosticism themer Kaba mysticism, led them on a path, you know, of course, because you know, they weren’t temple centric. In the yes.
21:32 – Adam Green
They’re anti Temple. and anti temple sacrifices.
21:35 – Jeramiah Giehl
Yes, and so that was, I say for me when I’m studying the historical literature, the parting aways between the Nazarenes and Ebionites who remained in synagogues, which we have records up to the 8th century, and then the Nazar. They became the foundation of Christianity. It’s why to this day, within telematic literature, they refer to Christians as Nazarenes, because And essentially, Nazarenes went the way of Hellenistic Judaism, which was Bl. And the reason it played so well is because when you play into the, the mysticism that came from Egypt, right?
22:09 – Jeramiah Giehl
Ptolemies in Egypt, yes, there was a contra temple in Egypt. And they they blended Egyptian ideas. Definitely with the, the mystic. It was, it was intriguing. Here’s the thing that was intriguing to the Romans. Because if you look at the pantheon, the gods had immorality, sex, backstabbing. There wasn’t a moral God who gave a moral ethical value system. And so philosophers within the Platonic tradition started going towards Heno theism, the idea of one God with an ethical system, and there was influences from some of those who had read the Greek Septuagint.
22:54 – Jeramiah Giehl
So Hellenism was kind of a blending of those ideas started with the Greek Septuagint and you know the Roman conquest, and what really I feel like was in it the Greek se tug. It was in a method to assimilate and start to indoctrinate Jews away from a T temple. Cent. Cold. And here’s what made it, you know, the, the um, dying and rising gods, the mysticism, you know, the watchers. And like even in the an Nokian literature where you’re looking for this higher power, this is where the we.
23:28 – Jeramiah Giehl
When we come to Christianity, it’s easier to hypothesize Jesus himself and turn him into a dying and rising gob. Is it the Hellenism already laid the foundation for that? And I don’t know if I’m getting too far off course here, but um you might want to bring me back.
23:43 – Adam Green
Well, yeah, let me back you up because I got a lot of questions, So you have an article here about Paul, as a mystic, right? There’s the verse, he’s caught up into the 3rd heaven, into Paradise. And I’ve got a really good book here, Cabala by Gershom Sham. He talks about how the e, the Essenes are basically out branched out of them is kind of like what looks like Christianity and what looks like Markv mysticism and then later into Cabala, right? So like mystical. And then you look at Daniel Boyer and the Talmudic scholar from Berkeley, he talks about how they were reading Scripture, like trying to find divine mysteries.
24:25 – Adam Green
I majorly like we see this in the Dead Sea Scrolls, they’re connecting all these different, different Messianic motifs, like in the Melchizedek scroll. It’s, it’s saying like this is the Divine, you know, Judgment Redeemer, Melchizedek the High Priest. And then they’re citing like Psalms and Isaiah and Daniel to like, you know, describe, but kind of write a story about what they thought the redemption would look like, So I think Paul was a mystic and I think he, I mean he clearly says like he’s, he never knew Jesus, right.
24:57 – Adam Green
He saw him in the Scriptures from Revelations when he’s caught up into Paradise. And I think that James and Peter and the 1st Christians before him. We’re also seeing Jesus mystically in the Scriptures.
25:14 – Jeramiah Giehl
Okay,
25:14 – Adam Green
Hold on me. Let just add one more caveat to that.
25:15 – Jeramiah Giehl
go ahead, go ahead. Yeah, finish your th,
25:17 – Adam Green
and and one of the reasons is because Epiphanius talks about the Ebionites and he says that,
25:17 – Jeramiah Giehl
finish your that.
25:23 – Adam Green
you know, James was very devout, right? He was like going in the, in the temple, he used uh, aesthetics, right? He, he wasn’t eating me. Doing the ritual, bathing, all these things. He was very devout, and he was the leader of the 1st Christian sect. But Epiphanius talks about a book called The Assent of James. So I just see Paul as like Ascension, mystical Midrash, story. I see, he says, Have I not, have I not also seen the Lord like he saw Him the same way they did? Paul says I learned nothing from them, nothing more of the Gospel from them.
26:00 – Adam Green
He doesn’t even really treat them as if they really knew Jesus.
26:02 – Jeramiah Giehl
Yep.
26:04 – Adam Green
So also The ascent of James and then the ascension of Isaiah, and then you look at Hebrews, it’s like Jesus ascending in the heavens, he’s the heavenly High Priests. No mention of like an earthly figure at all. So I am a mythic ist, and I think that Paul was a mystic, and they were all kind of mystical related to the Snes. So what do you think of that?
26:26 – Jeramiah Giehl
Well. So I, I think you’re conflating two different branches of mysticism into one. So the Enochian Judaism or Hellenistic Judaism that came through the Hellenistic culture,
26:36 – Adam Green
Yes.
26:42 – Jeramiah Giehl
I think sometimes gets conflated with Essing mysticism and I think they’re two different branches.
26:46 – Adam Green
Well, the well Enoch W hold on Enoch was found at Comrom,
26:48 – Jeramiah Giehl
They’re.
26:50 – Adam Green
though all everything but the similitudes was found there.
26:53 – Jeramiah Giehl
So I want to make a definition between the two.
26:56 – Adam Green
Okay.
26:57 – Jeramiah Giehl
They pull from some of the same text, but they are different in application and practice. So in Nokian Juice Judaism and Essing Judaism and Enochian Judaism is a modern term, so you know, you could throw the term out just like sing is like our best guests. Of what they called themselves.
27:15 – Adam Green
Hello.
27:16 – Jeramiah Giehl
so let me define the two branches of mysticism that pulled from the same text but came to different conclusions. The Hellenistic, what I’ll call in Nokian Judaism was not a temple cult that didn’t. They weren’t focused on cash rout and festivals. They blended with secular culture and they liked the myths that, you know, played very well within the philosophical elite in Roman culture that you know that they liked the roundedness of hen atheism and the ethics of Tora. But at the same time, the Greek culture still believed in a pantheon.
27:51 – Jeramiah Giehl
Now, when we move into the Ene Mysticism. I would say that Paul in the New Testament is contra Ene, and it is more Enochian Judaism than it is Ene. And there is there’s two branches of mysticism there, um one the purity right rituals of the Eines the the ritual purity. You know, they didn’t believe the Temple was pure, but if there was a pure temple, they’d worship there. They didn’t believe in practicing in the Temple in Jerusalem because that was corrupt. They felt the Sades were corrupt, but they believed in Temple sacrifices, but they wouldn’t participate because the Temple was corrupt and so they would ritually purify themselves.
28:33 – Jeramiah Giehl
They didn’t, you know, eat meat and they when it defecate on the Shabat, and they observe Shabat in the festivals. Whereas Inoki and Judaism participated in secular culture in myth in a way that so the two different branches And and I think it also can be illustrated in the way that the Ebionites stayed more within Jewish tradition and the Nazarenes went more with the Roman tradition. I think that there needs to be a distinction between the two types of mysticism to understand the distinction, that one led it to the parting of ways, and that one was more secular and the aesthetic of James.
29:14 – Jeramiah Giehl
Different than that of Paul. Now Paul did say he spent three years in the wilderness, just like Josepha said he spent three years in the wilderness with Essenes,
29:23 – Adam Green
Hello.
29:24 – Jeramiah Giehl
and studying that way of life.
29:25 – Adam Green
hello.
29:26 – Jeramiah Giehl
But I think a majority of the New Testament written at least the Paulin li literature and the stuff written by him, can be seen as contra ene um, and embracing fully the Hellenism of Platonic thought and E. Snes and the Hellen Institute. Judaism were not mainstream Tora Temple centric Judaism because Esns opted out and Christianity became something separate. So you know, when you talk about Yes,
29:54 – Adam Green
Preparing the Way in the Wilderness.
29:57 – Jeramiah Giehl
and when you talk about the Pharisees, they became what’s Rabbinic Judaism? So we’re talking of three different branches of Judaism. Esns disappeared because of their aesthetic way of life and we just have echoes of their writings. And then with the, the findings at Kumar. Pauline really. The Hellenistic Judaism that was part of the early Roman Sio, when they translated the Greek seb tug and sought to influence culture.
30:28 – Adam Green
How could it be a Roman sig up, when there was the Greeks that translated it?
30:31 – Jeramiah Giehl
Well, yeses you right? Okay, so.
30:36 – Adam Green
And just by the way, I totally disagree that it’s a Roman Sci upp,
30:38 – Jeramiah Giehl
What I, what I mean, what I mean,
30:40 – Adam Green
I think, I think Paul was a, he thought he was chosen in the womb, he was scouring the books, he was convinced in this cosmic,
30:47 – Jeramiah Giehl
yes.
30:48 – Adam Green
suffering Messiah figure, and he thought he was chosen, chosen in the womb to be the nation, to uh, the, the prophet to the nations. So the Apostle to the Gentiles. And I feel like it says and acts how James and the Jerusalem Church told him like, yes, we agree, go to the Gentiles, get them to follow these laws, you know, bring them to the God of Israel. I, I see, I see Paul and Christianity fulfilling all the prophecies of the Old Testament, where it’s about like the mos shiach going to the nations.
31:17 – Adam Green
Like in Isaiah it says, They will put, you know, He will be the light to the nations, they will put the their hope in Him. He will raise a banner to the nations, you know, like you can see the Midrash from Paul actually, where he cites the verses that that the Jews are supposed to reject the Messiah and then the Gentiles are supposed to go to him. Like I see it as a religion for the Gentiles. It’s so anti Jewish and pro Roman. It’s to appeal to the Romans so that.
31:45 – Jeramiah Giehl
That makes my point right there, but I’m gonna go back. Thank you for catching my, unconscious.
31:52 – Adam Green
Greek and Roman,
31:54 – Jeramiah Giehl
Yes,
31:54 – Adam Green
Yeah.
31:54 – Jeramiah Giehl
Greco Roman should have been the term I used the Greco Roman lab.
31:56 – Adam Green
Yeah.
31:57 – Jeramiah Giehl
it started with the Greeks, with Ptolemy, it continued with the Roman occupation. It so thank you for catching my my foible on that. But the Greek Septuagint was um you know, commissioned by Ptolemy, and There were changes to the text and there is differences between the Greek and the Hebrew, and it’s why you know, Jews to this day read in Hebrew, because to translate is to lie, because you can influence people through translation. And so there was a intentional change to text and it does breed into Hellenistic Judaism fast forward, you know, because that’s the period of the Mac obese to the the 1st century.
32:38 – Jeramiah Giehl
Now the co opting did Paul exist? I mean, does the Paul of the New Testament exist? Like the question who is Paul? I think Paul is an that we have of the New Testament is amalgamation of maybe Simon Magus.
32:56 – Adam Green
This spouter of lies from the Dead Sea Scrolls is what Eisenman thinks.
33:00 – Jeramiah Giehl
Yes, so uh, he is an amalgamation of things. The Li, the literature found by Marcian, most likely written or at minimum redacted by Marcion, which became further redacted when the Proto Ortho. Ox co opted and then wanted to change it because they didn’t like Martian’s ideas. Which became the founding for the writing of the New Testament, which became the New Testament. But who was Paul? You know, I mean there are. It’s possible that some of his story was embellished from the story of Josephus, because they both spent three years in the wilderness and share the same philosophical underpinnings.
33:37 – Jeramiah Giehl
So I mean the New Testament. It’s hard to take any part of it, part and parcel, because you have so many layers of redaction. And this is why, when I’m talking about like Greco Roman s up, that it was over time that they influenced the translation and the transmission of the text to their purpose and end. And it was a process, and it was the process of Hellenized, the secularization of the culture they’re trying to take over now. The great thing about it is because it became popular, the ideas of heno theism and ethics, it started spreading to other people and they saw all the power of it to influence others.
34:14 – Jeramiah Giehl
There’s so many layers that many like centuries that they were doing this redaction by the 4th to the 8th century, it became, they became very effective using it and they, they changed it for their own purposes. Now does that mean there wasn’t an original like Paul that had some ideas or Jesus? They definitely, if they were, they were different than what’s passed in the New Testament that we have. And so on. Covering and understanding who Paul was. I would put Paul definitely more within the Hellenistic tradition and the a lot of the the myths, I would say was later redaction, putting into the text to try to put it in a picture that made more sense.
34:56 – Jeramiah Giehl
But the blending of the Messiah myth with a Pathe,
34:56 – Adam Green
Hello.
34:59 – Jeramiah Giehl
the apotheosis, the turning You know a dead Caesar into God, the foundation of the creation of the the Jesus of the New Testament, which I don’t believe He lived, but there was probably a Jesus who died. But he didn’t fulfill for prophecy, and from what I understand from reading the text that the there is a group of early Eby Knights that thought he was a prophet calling for the end of Temple sacrifice, who may have wanted to be no,
35:25 – Adam Green
Paul, Paul, right oh.
35:27 – Jeramiah Giehl
no, Jesus. Jesus was a prophet calling for the end of Temple sacrifice, and he wanted to be King, and that is what got him cut off there now that’s who I see the historical Jesus as now.
35:40 – Adam Green
And then you think his followers like, started searching the Scriptures to try to justify that the Messiah was supposed to suffer after the fact.
35:49 – Jeramiah Giehl
We have two major events that make it hard to piece that together. One is the, the, the battle at Masada that led to the, you know, the battle that’s leading to the destruction of the temple in 70 Ad where they came in and you know, the Romans took over and they burned the temple, destroyed the, the records we would have, we don’t have texts from that period because, you know, they destroyed everything and then, you know.
36:13 – Adam Green
or it later, it later pro, popped up in the, in the Talmud, likely to.
36:18 – Jeramiah Giehl
Well, your stories would have been passed down but um, the a lott of, well there’s gonna be oral traditions that are passed down. Yes, but the text that would have been then is, is, would have been destroyed. And again the Bar Coke Boer v. Two instances where they went in and took over and would have destroyed buildings, structures and history. So we don’t have the important documents from that period now luckily we do have documents that survived in kumaran of the essenes but they weren’t central to jerusalem they were an aesthetic group outside so what we don’t have a really good picture of and this is what we have to piece together is what happened before seventy and what happened before one hundred thirty three now we have oral traditions within the town wood and we have the church fathers sayings but again just like the story of jesus these are decades and centuries after the original story so we don’t have a perfect picture if that makes sense Um, and so piecing it together becomes challenging and then a lot of it’s polemical, so you can’t take it at face value.
37:22 – Jeramiah Giehl
How do you find the intrinsic historical value with the polemic? It’s challenging,
37:29 – Adam Green
you said you’ve also read, Jewish Gospels by Daniel. Boyer.
37:34 – Jeramiah Giehl
Yeah, it’s been a while, but yeah.
37:36 – Adam Green
he talks about how christianity is like a perfect mid rush he says it’s a mid rush on Daniel seven and nine the son of man and and there’s themes that connect that to isaiah fifty three and he says that basically it’s just as likely that there were Jews of antiquity that were reading the Scriptures, like trying to find mysteries and connect these different verses for like deeper understandings of their redemption in the Messiah. And so I don’t think that it’s necessary that there was a charismatic Messi, a charismatic preacher, apocalyptic preacher, Jesus to have to be crucified for them to go search the Scriptures.
38:15 – Adam Green
I feel like they were searching the Scriptures beforehand. That was like the mystical tradition of Midrash that we see in the Dead Sea Scrolls.
38:24 – Jeramiah Giehl
The pessim I mean the the mid. The allegorical I mean.
38:29 – Adam Green
And the connecting of different verses is the key for like greater understanding and then also mixing that with like rewriting the stories like you would agree like the prophecies of Jesus, like writing in. I mean when you read the New Testament, it says and then this, so the Scripture could be fulfilled, and then to fulfill so the prophet that said this like the whole thing is following a narrative of like fulfilling the prophecies.
38:52 – Jeramiah Giehl
But how much of that was written after the fact and wasn’t historical fact? I mean, the problem is a lot of that was written in after the fact, after the destruction of the temple. After all this stuff, it’s rewriting of history, It’s not writing history. That’s where we get into the textual criticism and understanding that, you know, century well, decades and centuries later, depending on which part of the new that’s what you’re talking about was written by people who had a narrative they wanted to tell.
39:19 – Jeramiah Giehl
My,
39:19 – Adam Green
So do you think Paul was?
39:19 – Jeramiah Giehl
I.
39:20 – Adam Green
Paul was before the destruction of the temple, though right.
39:26 – Jeramiah Giehl
The literature we have of Paul is 2nd century. Was there a Paul that li before the the the 2nd Temple?
39:33 – Adam Green
It seems like there’s something the gospels were based on, like they were aware of Paul.
39:38 – Jeramiah Giehl
I would even go into uh, the pseudo Clementine or the Clementine literature and say that whether it was Simon Magus or Paul, there was a character, The New Testament writings of Paul are. We don’t have them till the 2nd century. So was there a Paul in the 1st century? If he existed, he’s not the one of the New Testament.
40:02 – Adam Green
From Paul’s authentic letters you could tell he wasn’t aware of the temple’s destruction. But the point I’m getting at is, he says like he knows of Jesus, his gospel of Jesus is from the Scriptures, right? He says at one point even like all he knew was that that Christ was crucified and then resurrected after three days. What scriptures like, He doesn’t cite his his scriptures that this is fulfilling, but Daniel Boy Oran and others think that he’s talking about Daniel seven and nine, that the Messiah is cut off and then can acting that to isaiah fifty three and then that’s like the story in mark where jesus is telling Peter like you know the son of man has to be rejected and suffer and die and and resurrect and he goes no don’t do that and he goes get behind me satan this is like it’s like this midrash idea this like mystical idea of connecting these two verses it was it was new and there was like division over it and that became the conflict do we accept this original like cosmic celestial high priest sacrifice suffering servant or Political, military, Moshiach bin David.
41:10 – Adam Green
And that was like the whole Jesus Baraba story, was them choosing the, you know, the rebel, the military person instead of the suffering Messiah. That’s my understanding of it.
41:23 – Jeramiah Giehl
so I would connect the actual early followers of jesus to the zealot movement and the reason that we lost a lot is because they a majority of them were cut off before seventy eight d uh because they were zealots and I would place them as involved with that revolt um it’s also why the remaining followers didn’t follow when barco revolted um They were made fun of the the Nazarene and Ebionites who did not participate in the Barcoo revolt were shunned because I think they had seen a failure before and they had already kind of given up on that idea of fighting for Jewish national identity in their own land in Israel, whatever they would have called it at that time.
42:17 – Jeramiah Giehl
The pest rem, the mid rush, that, that it existed. But what was used to create the New Testament? I see as being done in Rome through a secular influence, influence an agenda towards Hellenism, I want to place a majority of what comes into the New Testament, and part and parcel becomes very central to the 4th century and beyond as original. In Germain there may have been echoes of some of it used, but I would go back to what we have of the earliest text when it comes to And you can seee this in some of the writings of Bart Erman and others, that our earliest writings don’t have a record of Resurrection, Ascension, Virgin birth, and even some of the elements of Deification are not there and that is later reduction.
43:17 – Jeramiah Giehl
I don’t see that as original to the early message.
43:20 – Adam Green
I feel like the original layers that we have, like Paul, Hebrews 1st and 2nd, Peter, James, it’s like, it’s more so describing like a a heavenly figure. Like that’s what we see. We don’t have The the Biographical details of Jesus Like a Preacher on Earth in in Paul. James is the brother of Jesus. Isn’t it really weird that the Epistle of James in the Bible doesn’t introduce himself as Jesus, or give any indication that he’s the brother of Jesus? And then even Jude Jude introduces his his letter as the brother of James.
43:58 – Adam Green
But then you’re going to mention you’re the brother of James, but not the brother of Jesus. It just makes me think that, you know, I’m under the, I have the understanding that when Paul 1st mentioned James as the brother of Jesus, he’s just referring to him as a, a Christian brother like all, all believers are brothers and sisters in Christ.
44:18 – Jeramiah Giehl
But that’s kind of your modern understanding superimposing back then on it. I don’t know.
44:25 – Adam Green
No, Paul uses brothers and sisters all the time in that context.
44:27 – Jeramiah Giehl
Well, no, I know, but but the, yeah, well. We understand things from what we have, you know, our life experience to like how we’ve seen Christianity and and modern culture. Now I see James and Jude as Catholic sized documents that they are. What we have is not the original text.
44:45 – Adam Green
Well, didn’t they know the story, though? If they had Paul’s letters, they should have known that that was the brother of the Lord.
44:53 – Jeramiah Giehl
Are you referring to the Catholics?
44:54 – Adam Green
The Proto Orthodox Christians. It seems like that tradition of James be and the brother didn’t start until later. Otherwise why would it not be in there?
45:05 – Jeramiah Giehl
Well, we have earlier documents that if you look in the, the Apostolic Constitutions and some of the other literature, I mean. The tradition kind of goes back further. What I was saying is that like the books of James and Jude are documents that we have the Catholic, Catholic version of the the redacted version, not the original. If you look at the secret Epistle of James, or what’s called the Epistle Peter to James and his reception, you’re gonna see a different type of James then you’re not gonna see one.
45:39 – Jeramiah Giehl
It’s not the same as the Epistle of James that in the New Testament. And so the reason that those documents were chosen and put in the New Testament is because they supported their narrative. But I think they were redactions and of course, like there’s just evidence that it wasn’t written, there are. If you look at some of the pseudo Clementine literature, the, the works in the Apostolic Fathers and stuff like that, you’re gonna see a different James than is in the New Testament now.
46:10 – Jeramiah Giehl
It might be a different person, but Peter and James are played heavily in this,
46:15 – Adam Green
Sure.
46:17 – Jeramiah Giehl
and they are in conflict with their enemy and the conflict between the two communities which this plays out between the Eb Nights and Nazarenes. So the the, you know, I Is there a historical Paul? Who exactly is he? Simon Magus, Paul Simon who becomes Paul the Deceiver, you know, within the the Talmudic tradition. If we get to tld you sho,
46:39 – Adam Green
I was just gonna bring that up.
46:39 – Jeramiah Giehl
you know.
46:41 – Adam Green
I’ve been waiting to bring that up with you because I saw you mention that I did a whole video of a rabbis from Youtube talking about total, yes, you, I’m more on, I think that’s closer to the truth, that and then what we see some in the Bible with a little bit of like, ah, you know, the understanding of the ascent of James the, the proto, proto James I, I think. When I look at all the info total, yes, you basically says that Peter and then some, I think Paul’s even included like separated Christianity as like a heretical threat to Judaism and wanted to move it away and almost make it.
47:14 – Adam Green
It’s almost like they Hellenized it or made it more pagan to like keep Jews away from it and and that became like the a, the, a spout of lies. The Dead Sea Scrolls talks about belly all, how he has cast a net to like catch the, I see Christianity as like an inversion of Judaism. You agree with that Paul basically inverted a lot of the law and stuff so christians are now consuming blood not circumcising not keeping kosher all of these things that the jews are supposed to do so it kind of makes them I see it one hundred percent maybe at first it started as just like a cosmic spiritual victory savior but then I think it quickly evolved into a religion that was for the gentiles I don’t see this as because it didn’t even work the purpose of the messiah in second temple judaism was basically to theologically conquer the nations.
47:36 – Jeramiah Giehl
Yes, yeah.
48:09 – Adam Green
You know, the pagan idol worshipping nations, that’s what they wanted. But they didn’t do that with a military Messiah. They did it. They did it with the suffering Messiah that was rejected according to the Scriptures and then goes to the Gentiles. And then that’s the ultimate goal of Judaism is have that the nations worship the God of Israel. So in my Moni says, both Islam and Christianity are helping bring we the world off paganism, and bringing the world to the God of Israel.
48:37 – Jeramiah Giehl
So I think that that is a bit of a misunderstanding and a little bit of a reach, Defining terms to kind of clarify what I mean, all right. So um, the main goal of, the zealots would have been national identity, national sovereignty. Independence for Jewish people when it says the nations will come to learn of, you know, the God of torts because they did such a great job. And you know, identity. It wasn’t in the essence of global conquest to control all nations, but that they would want to learn about this God that gave the Jews their national identity.
49:25 – Jeramiah Giehl
That is more what the thought was, less they would control the rest of the world. And I’m gonna back that up in a little bit with some things. But I want to say there, there have always been essentially three branches of Judaism. There’s been a secular nature, the Hellen ization. There’ve been the more conservative, the Jews who want to You know, follow to it, but you know, be decent people. And then there’s the extreme which at the time would have been the Es scenes, and nowadays you have the ultra orthodox, the Hasidic Jews.
49:54 – Jeramiah Giehl
And throughout history there’s always been, and the outliers are always the extremes of the secularization and the extreme of the Zealots and the Esns. And I would say a lot of the early Jesus movement were of the Zealot branch, and Paul was definitely an adherent of the helmet. Branch, now Jews historically, and continue to be, even after all that, unconcerned with converting Gentiles, and they believe the righteous of all people of a place in the world to come So the I, the Messiah, to establish national identity for Israel was to establish Israel’s independence.
50:37 – Jeramiah Giehl
And then the idea that the Jews or not Jews, the non Jews, would come to Israel to learn of the Messiah was in no way an indication that they wanted that to control other nations, but that people would want to learn about this Messiah that gave them their independence is more what the idea was.
50:53 – Adam Green
Hey.
50:55 – Jeramiah Giehl
now the ideas that come to us through Christianity. Through Grow, government control and suppression come from Roman Catholicism. And there’s a history of Rome using the ideas that they blended, and it wasn’t just Christianity. Catholic means university. It it was myth ism, Platonism, Pythag ism, Roman Catholicism, It it was co opting other cultures, but so that you could brainwash, indoctrinate and control them. There was there there are echoes of this Midrash Jewish tradition, there are echoes of these other things, but it’s not true to the Enochian Judaism.
51:35 – Jeramiah Giehl
What they took and became part of Christian is not true to what was Enochian Judaism, isn’t true to what was Essing Judaism, and what became Christianity and was used to take over the Western world was an aberrant version of the Hellenistic Judaism that was in essence mystical. So that. But the core value system of the Jewish people was national identity, national sovereignty. Now, the idea that Messiah would establish that and they would worship the God of Israel in no way would supplant the national identity of other nations or that.
52:14 – Jeramiah Giehl
That would lead to them controlling or influencing other nations. And that’s a misunderstanding of what that you know, that they would learn of Messiah like,
52:21 – Adam Green
Well, all he said is that they’re gonna believe in the Messiah.
52:21 – Jeramiah Giehl
Why did.
52:23 – Adam Green
The world that that’s, that’s the goal is for the nations to recognize the one true God of Israel through his Messiah. That’s like you go look at all the Old Testament scriptures, that’s. That’s what the role, you know, clear as day described to go to the nations,
52:38 – Jeramiah Giehl
I mean the primary goal.
52:40 – Adam Green
the light, the servant, the lightened to the nations. They will put their hope in him.
52:47 – Jeramiah Giehl
I mean, the primary goal would be national identity, national sovereignty and um, out of that, you know, the people would become interested in it.
52:56 – Adam Green
W What about Daniel Nine, the son of man from Daniel. Shoot where is it Daniel seven seven twenty s twenty seven then the sovereignty power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the holy people of the most om sorry Daniel seven thirteen to fourteen is what I meant the son of man out coming out of the clouds of heaven he was given authority glory and sovereign power all nations and peoples of every language worship him like that’s what I’m talking about right there something like that all of the world worshipping him Daniel seven fourteen.
53:32 – Jeramiah Giehl
So the focus of Judaism has been the tour of the 1st five books,
53:36 – Adam Green
Heh?
53:36 – Jeramiah Giehl
the Neva Em and the Kta. Vim is not the core of Judaism, and there’s many interpretations of what that may be, but that’s not the core focus of Judaism. Judaism is,
53:49 – Adam Green
The prophet Daniel. And isn’t that into? Knock right that that’s that’s Judaism,
53:54 – Jeramiah Giehl
it’s not.
53:54 – Adam Green
doesn’t Judaism? Judaism today, acknowledges Daniel.
53:58 – Jeramiah Giehl
Okay, it’s not the Hmas, the 1st five books, it is, and that’s a knock, but the focus of Judaism is the 1st five books.
54:05 – Adam Green
Hold on, what is the word for the 1st Five book? How come you don’t call it tora?
54:08 – Jeramiah Giehl
Hum,
54:09 – Adam Green
You say umh instead of tora.
54:11 – Jeramiah Giehl
that just means five, you know.
54:12 – Adam Green
Oh,
54:12 – Jeramiah Giehl
So the Tora or Uh, Tno or in uh Christian circles, Pentateuch, it’s the 1st five books. So the Hmas is the 1st five books. The 1st five books are the core of what Judaism is. The writings are a bit of history and the prophetic is definitely it’s, it’s not the core focus of Judaism is the 1st five books. There is a lot of interpretation, there’s a lot of a lot like the focus hasn’t and is not on books like Daniel, is it in the Tno? Yes.
54:50 – Adam Green
The Son of Man character is both in Enoch and in the New Testament as well.
54:50 – Jeramiah Giehl
But that’s not the focus. Then. That’s apocryphal literature that wasn’t, you know, accepted within the rabbinical tradition.
55:00 – Adam Green
It it was,
55:00 – Jeramiah Giehl
So.
55:01 – Adam Green
it was. It was found in Uh Kumon, though an An Jude cites Uh Enoch as well.
55:08 – Jeramiah Giehl
again. It, it fell outside of, like the mainstream of Judaism you have, you know, out lion groups. Like, like we’re talking about the Inoki and Judaism and the Esns, those are outliers. They are not the large core. They’re two groups on the outside, the fringes. Yes, you know, there are those traditions,
55:26 – Adam Green
Who, who would be the hardcore,
55:27 – Jeramiah Giehl
but
55:28 – Adam Green
Then the Pharisees, Uh Sham, uh Hell and Shami, and then the Sjs. That’s mainstream.
55:35 – Jeramiah Giehl
The Sadducees would have been within the Hellenistic tradition, but the Pharisees Heel and Shama would be within Mis mainstream, which became Rabbinic Judaism, which askew all of those ideas.
55:48 – Adam Green
But did adopt a lot of es sean ideas that later came into Cabala.
55:54 – Jeramiah Giehl
Well, so Cabala isn’t rebating Judaism, but it’s an offshoot of So yes, it came from the tradition, but then they, they pull from that mystical tradition, say, you know, like Es and influence and and stuff like that. Now that’s still,
56:12 – Adam Green
Mysticism.
56:12 – Jeramiah Giehl
yeah, but that’s still not. The mainstream large core again, that’s external. It’s not external, but it’s the outliers.
56:20 – Adam Green
Don’t you think it’s like, kind of like it’s, it’s reasonable to think like Paul was describing a mystical experience He’s caught up into the 3rd heaven. He’s talking about revelations and, and visions and see, and Jesus and Scripture. So if that’s why, that’s his argument, right, You know, I learned it from no man. And so if that’s what gives him authority, like, don’t you think, like that’s just what the earlier Christians could have been to and could have been doing too, And that this This particular Jesus logo, Suffering Messiah, Son of Man figure was 1st seen in the Scriptures by like James and Peter and and John and and some like Esen, maybe Ebonite sect.
57:04 – Jeramiah Giehl
I mean, I want it.
57:06 – Adam Green
I wanted to ask you, because you know a lot about this, what are the strongest arguments that Jesus was the brother of James? Like early, early people talking about Ebonite, I know they say that they didn’t believe that he was uh, or they believed he was born of Joseph, right? That’s what they would say, but did, did they conclude that just because they didn’t have Immaculate Conception or something, I don’t know, what do you think?
57:32 – Jeramiah Giehl
Secret Infancy Gospel, talks about. I mean there, there’s not just out in the Kel, Celsus and Tomic traditions,
57:43 – Adam Green
Hello.
57:45 – Jeramiah Giehl
there’s more than that that, you know, points to. Joseph being the father of Jesus, um or um. Potentially Panera, a Roman soldier, which may have been a Jew, a Jewish person serving in the Roman army, which Pantera was a common name in the Talwood used for people who served in the Roman army.
58:11 – Adam Green
Do you think that that myth is what led to the arms story?
58:16 – Jeramiah Giehl
with the Armus story, which one.
58:18 – Adam Green
Arm, they say, is there’s like a statue of him he’s born. It’s mimicked off of Romulus, and I think it has something about a Roman soldier father as well.
58:28 – Jeramiah Giehl
I’m not familiar where they pulled that from, but I mean but the the the early tradition of things outside of the New Testament. You know there are echoes, even early texts of the New Testament. They refer to the father of Jesus being Joseph. You know, later on they, they removed it and focused on the, you know, Mary, the mother of Jesus. I mean he had an earthly father. I mean he wasn’t God or divine, he wasn’t Savior of mankind. So I mean, how else do you explain to human that was born he had a father?
59:05 – Jeramiah Giehl
There’s no Immaculate Conception.
59:08 – Adam Green
So let me ask you something. If it was Paul didn’t create Christianity, so he didn’t come up with the sci up. It was. It was James and the the Christian sex before him, right? That. They must have been the real followers of Jesus. They were the ones that after he died they were coping. They searched the Scriptures to try to prove like mid raily Oh, look at all the Messianic proof here. The Messiah is meant to suffer. And then he came in, and really his only Or his biggest innovation that we know of is he just took it, expanded it to the Gentiles.
59:39 – Jeramiah Giehl
Definitely not. James and them were not involved with it at all, all of that and it wa and it wasn’t Paul,
59:46 – Adam Green
Oh, really.
59:49 – Jeramiah Giehl
I mean Paul’s literature. Let’s go to the tradition we have 1st.
59:53 – Adam Green
So you’re saying, Paul, that they didn’t think that his suffering was any atonement or anything? That was all hundred percent,
59:58 – Jeramiah Giehl
They did not know,
59:58 – Adam Green
Paul.
1:00:00 – Jeramiah Giehl
no, they didn’t. There is evidence and there are authors who believe this and and have written this that uh, no, the early Ebn did not believe he was savior, didn’t believe he was raised from the dead. And so that tradition was added later. Now I don’t believe Paul, Paul, there’s some early inclinations of it, but it was developed over time. So Paul, Paul’s wri early writings. Lightly played and then over time it was embellished. No, I see within James and Peter, um tour. Observant Jews who believed in conversion to Judaism kept kosher and,
1:00:40 – Adam Green
Hey.
1:00:40 – Jeramiah Giehl
observed the festivals. And now I want to talk about something that you brought up earlier, that the, okay, so Judaism has always been about the study of text and the argument of text and the main focus hass been the Hmas, which is what the Talmot is. You know, the the recitation of the oral commentary about the the 1st five books is the main focus. And so when we’re talking about all this stuff that’s outside of the, the 1st five books, we’re talking about the prophetic literature, we’re talking about the apocrypha, we are talking about things that are out outside of Now when you look at the Epistle Peter to James, they talk about the the tradition transmitted from Moses, the initiation and the study of the sacred text.
1:01:24 – Jeramiah Giehl
And they followed the tradition of studying those 1st fied books and debating those 1st fied books. Because that is what the core of Jews tradition was for Rebet Jews and for what I see in the early Eba nights now the mid rash stuff that you’re talking about, the stuff that influences Paul. But Paul.
1:01:43 – Adam Green
So you’re saying that the original Christians only followed the Tora?
1:01:47 – Jeramiah Giehl
I wouldn’t call them Christians, though I mean that’s a that’s a
1:01:50 – Adam Green
The original?
1:01:53 – Jeramiah Giehl
Jewish followers of Jesus and James, and I don’t know if Jesus was. He was ape who was cut off.
1:02:01 – Adam Green
actually the followers of Jesus, or was James the guy? James J.
1:02:04 – Jeramiah Giehl
They were more followers, yeah, they were more followers of James,
1:02:07 – Adam Green
going on himself.
1:02:09 – Jeramiah Giehl
they were more followers of James. But here’s the thing the winners write history. So a lot of their documents at seventy and one thirty three are destroyed and then the focus for those who had the power to censor and distribute was in rome now Paul I would say had a light in you know there was macabi mysticism there was hellenism plutonian ism and his writings and then you have The text that I think Marcian redacted. You know I I’m inclined between written and redacted, but I think there was probably a Simon he’s basing it off of Simon Magus or something.
1:02:47 – Jeramiah Giehl
There’s these Epistles, these writings, and when he found them he’s known to have redacted what he had. He has his redacted Gospel, so I believe he redacted the Epistles he found, and so he added his own flavor to it. Now he was considered a heretic, and the proto orthodox, or like,
1:03:07 – Adam Green
So hold on. Before this there were there were there, Pauline sex before.
1:03:12 – Jeramiah Giehl
He, was very much in disfavor. And there was, he wasn’t Paul. If you wanna get into who I think Paul was, it’s a little more interesting. But I definitely follow, Celsus and Telt ish and the Ebit who thought, Okay here, who was Paul? Paul was He was a convert who wanted to marry the high priest daughter,
1:03:33 – Adam Green
Thought he was a convert.
1:03:39 – Jeramiah Giehl
and then because he was rejected, created his own thing that was separate. Now he didn’t create something new because he just took the stuff that was there and repackaged it and over time, He repackaged it one, then Marcian repacked it, repackaged it, and then the proto orthodox repackaged it, and then the Catholics came in and just revamped the whole thing. And that’s what we have in our textual tradition that starts in the 4th century, the the 1st complete Gospels that we have come post Nicene.
1:04:14 – Jeramiah Giehl
You know Codex V v Vat kinase,
1:04:15 – Adam Green
So do you believe like are you sorry,
1:04:16 – Jeramiah Giehl
Nit Ais.
1:04:18 – Adam Green
are you to, only to, or do you believe that like there’s prophecies that there’s, that a Messiah is gonna come?
1:04:27 – Jeramiah Giehl
Secular Jew I would put the idea of Messiah in a enlightenment, of the world where mankind comes to a better place and seeks peace and Tiuna Lam wants to repair the world versus a physical Messiah to establish a kingdom in Israel,
1:04:45 – Adam Green
What is the role, what do? What do you think the direction Christianity and Islam and all the other religions need to take to do to Kuno Lam and heal the world? Do you think it’s Noah Hide Do you think Noah Hyde ism is gonna grow and that’s the solution.
1:04:59 – Jeramiah Giehl
I mean, I don’t think it’s a solution. I mean it’s no hyd ism is if somebody
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